Thursday, November 13, 2008
Carver Response to Literature
Hi Kids....We are now ready to start responding to the two Carver short stories....which one do you like the best and why? What did Carver's editor do to "destroy" or "alter" the original? Defend your position with specific evidence from both stories. See the prompt for more specific information. Good Luck. Be sure to post one initial response and answer at least one other response from another person. Mr. H.
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18 comments:
I enjoyed Carver's original story, Beginners, with no edits at all. It left the audience feeling more hopeful towards having a loving and lasting relationship. One thing that Carver's editor did was cut out a large portion of the old couple's story. Carver had written a full page about the married old couple which gave us more information about their lives, and how they managed to stay together. The story behind the old couple allows for a feeling of hope in finding that "perfect someone". But because Carver's editor took the story of the only surviving marriage out, it raises the question if Carver was the only optimistic person about love, while his editor did not believe that relationships could be permeant.
I felt that Carver's story, "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love" did not give the reader a confident feeling about what true love really means. The original version, "Beginners" goes into detail about an elderly couple who cannot stand to be without each others company for an extended period of time. I believe that this example of companionshoip is a necessary component to the story, and it is a wonder why the editor would ever choose to remove it. I fully agree with Mary's comment about the elderly couple giving the reader a sense of hope,and without this hope, Carver's message about true love does not come through.
I liked reading Carver's original short story, "Beginners", much more than the revised "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love" because the original story was much more hopefully and optimistic about true love. Lish's revisions that cut the story about the elderly couple took away Carver's optimism of true love occurring. Carver wrote how the elderly couple would dance together every night and be with each other, which makes true love believable, but when Lish cut that whole section out, it takes away the hope of real love. I agree with Ben that without the elderly couple in "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love", Carver's message about true love does not become apparent, and Carver comes across as a skeptic of love.
Carver’s original version “Beginners” was definitely a much more interesting story. It was really interesting to me learning some of the background that “Rough Crossings” gave. It talked about how Carver was a “recovering alcoholic and a fragile spirit.” I don’t think Lish took this into consideration while he was editing/re-writing the story. Lish completely changed the meaning of Carver’s story into (like what Mary, Ben and Kevin have all said) a very pessimistic view on love.
In Lish’s re-write he adds at the end that “the room went dark,” yet in Carver’s version he states that it was “near-dark,” also his final sentence, “I knew I still had to keep still a while longer, keep my eyes out there, outside the house, as long as there was something left to see.” In Carver’s version the ending holds some hope for these two couples, and true love in general. This also exemplifies that despite Carver’s depressing history, he too held some hope for life, and love.
I think that Raymond Carver's "Beginners" was a more hopeful than the editors version. The story gave more depth to the characters relationships. Carvers editor eliminates the details on the old lovers relationship. This element, for me, added a lot to the story. It gave us a sense of what the old couple had been through and how they were truly in love. He talked about how they had been away from each other only twice in their lives. This is a true indicator of the bond between these two old people, and in the editors version we simply do not see any trace of the loving connection between these two people. I agree with Steph when she mentioned "Rough Crossings." I think this is an important point to bring up. The fact that Carver was a "fragile spirit" must have greatly influenced the way he chose to end his story. His editor on the other hand clearly did not have the same experiences as Carver and therefore cannot see the importance of the old peoples relationship.
I liked reading "Beginners" more than "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love". Taking close to half of the original version out, Lish changed the entire mood of the story in my opinion. The first version was more passionate and deep while the second version was drastically chopped up and much less loving. The differences between the versions are the old couple’s story and the ending. Lish destroyed the sentiment in the old couples story making the story lack the love the couples at the table ask about. The ending of the story is different because in “Beginners” Nick is left with some hope about his and Laura’s love for one another as she gives him a look as if she is saying, “Don’t worry, we’ll get past this, everything is going to be all right with us, you’ll see.” In "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love" hope is not there as the story ends with their heartbeats pounding. "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love" is definitely more pessimistic and “Beginners” is more optimistic as my fellow classmates have said.
Personally I enjoyed the story, "What We Talk About Love." I enjoyed it because it is like a summary of the original story "Beginners." I feel this way because at the time I didn't feel like reading and I had to and it took forever to get through because "Beginners" was a longer story. While "What We Talk About Love" was shorter it didn't take long to read at all. But it does give you a general idea of the story. But other than the length there was no problem with the story, it gave great detail. I also feel the editors edit was jacked! How he took out all the detail that really made the story. Focusing on the old couple how in "Beginners" the old couple can’t stand to be without each other for a certain amount of time. Which is an essential part of the story and the old couples relationship, while in "What We Talk About Love" doesn't give this important detail. So I believe it is safe to say "I have mixed feelings about the stories, so it depends on what mood I am in to say which i really prefer. lol =p haha!
I feel that Carver's original story, "Beginners", is better than the editied version. I believe the editor changed the story to resemble the way that he thought about love rather than keeping the way that Carver described in the first place. I agree with Ben and Mary when they say that the editor erases the sense of hope that Carver tries to portray in finding true love.
the original story "beginners" was a much more enjoyable story because it was more hopeful. carvers emphasis of the old couples story in "beginners" leaves a much stronger impression on the reader than the other stories of unsuccessful love. this makes the reader feel that the over all message of the story is positive. the edited version of the story fails to convey this message because the story of the old couple is so brief thus giving the story a very negative message. i agree with Mary that the story of the old couple is a key factor in making the original story positive.
I'd like to start off by saying that I disagree with Ben. "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love", I felt, embodied true love fairly well. On the other hand, "Beginners" delved into the concept of true love, but obviously went deeper, an example being the story of the Gates couple. Overall I thought "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love" was an excellent summary of "Beginners" but "Beginners" embodiment of true love as a whole was far better. I also thought that "Beginners" had more humor throughout the entire story, which I enjoyed. And finally, I thought that the two endings were very differnt. At the end of "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love", I felt the story left me hanging and that all of the sudden the gin was gone and the story was all over. But at the end of "Beginners", it seemed that the ending was more complete with Nick, who was pondering life. In conclusion, I think Carver was in an extraordinarily tough situation with Lish and that Lish had no right whatsoever to change Carver and his ideas.
I definitely enjoyed "Beginners" more than "What We Talk about when We Talk about Love". Not only was Carver's original story completely butchered by Lish, but it also lost its sentimentality and meaning and traded them for crude language and harshness.
I found this link online, with all of Lish's changes: http://www.newyorker.com/online/2007/12/24/071224on_onlineonly_carver)
When I went through all of Carver's editor's comments, it was as though he made the story less optimistic and more crude. He added a lot of bad words, took away all sentimental aspects, and shortened the story dramatically. Though I am certainly one for taking out unnecessary words, Lish made the story more blunt and dry by removing so many important parts. As for the crudeness, he added phrases like "worked like fuck on them, "tear into your ass," "what the fuck’s the difference," "I fuck around," "Shit," "the bastard," "goddamn head," and "fucking woman." (In only 2 pages...) This language is unbelievable (talk about changing Carver's meaning). Carver originally had none of this and Lish took it upon himself not only to remove most of the description of "real love" (the old couple) but also to add words that do not actually add, but rather, take away from the beauty of the story.
My favorite part of "Beginners" was when the old man describes what he and Anne used to do in the cold winters. It was beautifully written, touching, and artistic. Lish completely took it out.
Carver's "Beginners" and "Lish's" "What We Talk about when We Talk About Love" are two completely different stories. One is beautiful, hopeful, and sentimental - the other - crude, disgusting, and dry.
In response to Demetrius' comment:
I strongly believe that all stories should be judged on how well they are crafted and written, rather than how long they take to read. I agree with Demetrius on this point: some stories deliver deep messages within a few pages (like some of the stories we have read this semester). However, "What We Talk about when We Talk About Love" does not deliver a deep message in comparison with "Beginners." Lish's version is crude, boring, and albeit TOO short to deliver the same message Carver gets across in "Beginners." What Lish cut from the story was the most important part! It discussed, in great detail, what true love is like and how the old couple has gotten along so well for so long.
It seems that Demetrius enjoyed both stories somewhat equally based on his comment, and would have to agree that the editor was "jacked" when he destroyed Carver's original. lol =p
I agree with Arpad. I do not think Lish had any right to change so much in the original "Beginners". I looked at Catherine's link and it is astonishing how much Lish edited! In regards to "Rough Crossings", I think that although Craver knew the extreme amounts of corrections were unfair to him as a writer, he went with it because he felt that Lish knew what was right. I think Carver thought that if Lish believes all these corrections had to be made, he wouldn’t want the public to see the original out of possible embarrassment, so he just went with it. I am happy the original “Beginners” was finally recovered and published.
I enjoyed reading "Beginners" much more than I enjoyed reading the edited version "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love." Carver's original work is much more detailed and poignant than its watered down successor. Lish makes far too many unnecessary edits, for instance the old couples' relationship. It is expanded on in Beginners to much greater detail and portrays the idea of love in a much more positive, optimistic light whereas in the revised version it is more pessimistic. The edits included in Lish's version seem arbitrary and in my opinion bring the story down a notch. I agree with Stephanie in that there is a level of passion reached in Beginners that just cannot be touched in What...Love
I enjoyed "Beginners" much more than I did "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love." I liked "Beginners" more because it was more sentimental and love was talked about in a positive way, where as in "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love." I did not like Lish's edits and thought that he made a huge mistake editing "Beginners" the way that he did. I thought the story was better in it's original format and not the heavily editited Lish version. I disliked how Lish changed so much about the story of the old couple and most of the love in their relationship.
I agree with Demetrius in that Lish's edits were too harsh and should not have taken out as much of the love in the story as he did. I also thought that What We Talk About When We Talk About Love was too long and should not have been lengthened in its editing.
I think I liked Carvers Original story "Beginners" more than the other story. It gave the reader more hope of finding true love. When I read " What we talked about when we talkabout love" I felt that their could not be any true love. It seemed that Carver was trying to say that people have lost the true meaning of love. No one really knows what love truly is. He made it seem like true love was a thing of the past. When the old couple died in the story so did true love. In the world the two couples lived in, love was about sitting around and drinking. Their was a little hope of finding love again but it was not likely to happen. But in Begginers, love seemed like something that could be found. All they have to do is realize their is a problem. Also Begginers included some important details about the old couple like they danced with each other every night and they enjoyed each others company.
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